Talk:Paris Cité University

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France: Paris Mid‑importance

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On 8 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from University of Paris (2019). The result of the discussion was Moved to Université Paris Cité.

On 14 April 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Paris Cité University. The result of the discussion was Procedural close.

Reliable sources?

I do not understand this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=University_of_Paris_(2019)&diff=975436434&oldid=975436345 by Materialscientist. The information was removed on the grounds that the article was "not providing a reliable source". As far as I can tell, the sources for the rankings were the ranking organizations themselves. What would be a more reliable source? Even after reading WP:CITE and WP:RS, I am still confused.

The sentence that read "recognized and ranked in all major world university rankings" was unsourced, that is true, and I do not personally care if it appears in the article. But what is the justification for removing relevant sourced information? Quantum Knot (talk) 14:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Université Paris Cité. The supporters of this name evidenced their comments with usage and reliable sources, making their arguments much stronger than the alternatives. DrKay (talk) 15:27, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

University of Paris (2019) → Paris City University – The university has been renamed by decree to "Université Paris Cité".^[1]^[2] The move could be either to the French name, or the English translation as proposed (following the article's current naming). Inops (talk) 17:06, 8 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 12:43, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, Paris Cité University would be better than Paris City University. I don't see an established English name for the university yet (unsurprisingly, given the recent renaming), so translating Cité to City is perhaps too adventurous. (The naming conventions say not to make up an original translation.)

Similar title constructions: Paris Nanterre University, Paris Dauphine University, Paris-Saclay University. These suggest not to go with the French name ("Université"), though personally I would prefer the French names everywhere. DominikPeters (talk) 15:02, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Non-French language city universities are translated to "City" and not left as a transliteration of their native languages or in their native languages. I don't see why French should be excepted, this is the English Wikipedia and not the French Wikipedia. Since other language universities do so, then this one should as well -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give examples, please? I see Nagoya City University and Osaka City University but both of them put this specific English translation on their website, making it official. In the present case, there is no official translation, so we would be making one up. Istanbul Şehir University is an example where "city" wasn't translated. DominikPeters (talk) 13:25, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Counter example: Sorbonne Paris Cité Alliance. OK, it's a university alliance but still. Favonian (talk) 17:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Given there is no widespread English translation of the name (yet), I feel it would be better to go with the French name for the time being. Indeed, the university's press release in English uses the untranslated name. I would oppose using a hybrid translation (like "Paris Cité University"), until --and if-- that becomes the name used in English. As a note, there is one industry source using "Paris City University", so it's not completely without precedent. --Inops (talk) 16:34, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I should clarify that I support using the untranslated name only if "Paris City University" isn't agreed upon. -Inops (talk) 20:46, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree The French name is Université Paris Cité. However, the title of almost all articles of French universities on English Wikipedia is written in English, so the article name should be Paris City University. Examples: Paris-Saclay University, Grenoble Alpes University, University of Lille, University of Montpellier, University of Nantes, University of Bordeaux, University of Burgundy, Aix-Marseille University. Brainist (talk) 13:44, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note that Grenoble Alpes University did not have the word "Alpes" translated into English ("Alps"). So far, no one has given an example where Wikipedia made up a new translation, other than changing word order and using "university", but we have counterexamples (Sorbonne Paris Cité Alliance, Istanbul Şehir University). (If there are French people here (I'm not) who think that City and Cité definitely mean the same thing, then I'd be more comfortable, but I have my doubts. For example, Cité might invoke the nearby island.) DominikPeters (talk) 17:57, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment are they ever going to stop renaming and reshuffling these institutions? Anyhow, if they haven't finalized the English translation of the name, it is too soon to move the article. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 02:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Université Paris Cité which has usage in English outside the institution e.g. [1] [2] [3]. Not every word or name is translated and many institutions are best known in English by their native language names rather than some arbitrary translation. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:41, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can we achieve consensus to move to "Université Paris Cité"? This discussion has been open a good while now. --Inops (talk) 13:56, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Paris Cité University Cité does not mean "City", city is "ville" in French. Cité is here a reference to the ile de la cité, at the heart of Paris. It would be a wrong translation, it is not at all the University of the City of Paris. As long as there isn't a further source, it should be Paris Cité University or if not the French name. --Delfield (talk) 16:52, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with those who say Paris Cité University, for the reasons that they give: (1) The French university articles on English-language Wikipedia have titles in English, in keeping with English-language Wikipedia policy. (2) Cité has no easy translation into English, and City is definitely not a proper translation of Cité, so, unfortunately, this part of the name is best left in French. MyPOV (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would just add that using the French word "Université" in the article title would be a highly unusual step. Just take a look, for instance, at this list of German university articles, and count the number (zero) that use the German word "Universität" in the article title: List of universities in Germany. Or this list of Italian university articles, and count the number (four) that use the Italian word "Università" in the article title: List of universities in Italy. Or this list of Spanish university articles, and count the number (six) that use the Spanish word "Universidad": List of universities in Spain. There is no similarly well-tended list of French university articles, but, as already stated, there are, to my knowledge, zero or close to zero, such articles that use "Université" in the article title. The evidence is that, on English-language Wikipedia, if the article is about a university, the title uses the English term "University" to describe this fact. MyPOV (talk) 21:53, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've put together a table listing the French university articles for the 67 French public universities (none of them on English language Wikipedia have "Université" in the title): Lists of universities in France#List of public universities MyPOV (talk) 01:51, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed DominikPeters Inops Favonian, Regarding Cité, only people not fluent in French (or in English) think it means city, it's part of the proper name, a specific reference and not at all all the reference to the city of Paris. Regarding Université, this is always translated in English Wikipedia, as MyPOV shows. If the university chooses another name in English, it can evolve, but for now that's indeed the proper choice. --Delfield (talk) 02:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think part of the confusion might stem from the fact that "city" is a principal translation of "cité" in bilingual English-French dictionaries. So people not familiar with the context might be perplexed as to why we say that "City" is not a legitimate translation of "Cité" in this case. @Delfield puts it well by saying: "Cité is here a reference to the ile de la cité, at the heart of Paris". If I might expand on that, if one were really intent on translating "Cité", as it is used here, one could render it as something like "Medieval City Center" or "Historic Center" or "Old Town". But I don't think we'd want to name the article "Paris Medieval City Center University". --MyPOV (talk) 05:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Paris Cité University I think we've now heard good arguments that this is the best of the proposed titles (use "University" like all similar article titles, use "Cité" because it is a proper name). Is there consensus? DominikPeters (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Décret n° 2022-327 du 4 mars 2022 portant dénomination d'établissement public expérimental". www.legifrance.gouv.fr. 4 March 2022. Retrieved 2022-03-07.
^ "L'Université de Paris bientôt renommée Université Paris Cité". Le Monde.fr (in French). 15 February 2022. Retrieved 8 March 2022.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DrKay: the three last users were in favor of Paris Cité University, providing sources and creating tables to this end. Only one another in favor of Université Paris Cité in first choice, another in second, and none had participated further in the discussion. Two in favor of Paris City University. I fail to see how you see a consensus for the minority, less detailed and old view. --Delfield (talk) 15:35, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see any reliable sources in the comments made by participants in April. DrKay (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Delfield, I fear that @DrKay mistook some press releases for reliable sources, and dismissed the report in Research Professional News (the only non-press-release cited in the discussion) as being a reliable source. In any case, the paucity of reliable sources clearly puts this in the case Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#No established usage in English-language sources. Three or four poor quality data points do not constitute "established usage". No worries, at some point in the next few years, I'm sure this will be corrected. - MyPOV (talk) 20:18, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

With no established usage, it's easy enough to Google and find various inventions. Here's an article (again, not a press release) that calls the university "the University of Paris Cité" https://globeecho.com/news/europe/france/the-university-of-paris-will-soon-be-renamed-universite-paris-cite/ --MyPOV (talk) 20:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. When translating, the same source says Paris Cité University by the way. Delfield (talk) 05:09, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close. As you said that "There was a consensus to move to Paris Cité University". This means that you believe that the closer misunderstood the consensus. I also see the above interaction with them where they put forth their statement. Now, if you still believe that the close was inappropriate, you should follow the process outlined at Wikipedia:Move review. (closed by non-admin page mover) —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • C • L)} 16:46, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Université Paris Cité → Paris Cité University – There was a consensus to move to Paris Cité University, after the clarification on the translation of Cité. I quote another user: *::I would just add that using the French word "Université" in the article title would be a highly unusual step. Just take a look, for instance, at this list of German university articles, and count the number (zero) that use the German word "Universität" in the article title: List of universities in Germany. Or this list of Italian university articles, and count the number (four) that use the Italian word "Università" in the article title: List of universities in Italy. Or this list of Spanish university articles, and count the number (six) that use the Spanish word "Universidad": List of universities in Spain. There is no similarly well-tended list of French university articles, but, as already stated, there are, to my knowledge, zero or close to zero, such articles that use "Université" in the article title. The evidence is that, on English-language Wikipedia, if the article is about a university, the title uses the English term "University" to describe this fact. MyPOV (talk) 21:53, 3 April 2022 (UTC) *::I've put together a table listing the French university articles for the 67 French public universities (none of them on English language Wikipedia have "Université" in the title): Lists of universities in France#List of public universities MyPOV (talk) 01:51, 4 April 2022 (UTC) --Delfield (talk) 21:01, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Someone should reopen the article name issue, because it was wrongly decided, as the article title guidelines for foreign names and Anglicization were not followed. These guidelines state: "In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." For a newly named university, there is, necessarily, "no established English-language treatment for a name", yet the decision was based on an imagined established usage.

The discussion cited a few examples in English of press releases about the publication of scientific papers that mentioned researchers on those papers as being with "Université Paris Cité", and these were taken as "reliable sources" on which to base the title of the article about the university. Even if these sources were reliable, there are too few examples to consider that there is an established usage. So the name ought to have been translated into English as the guidelines direct, and the best translation into English without loss of accuracy (see the discussion concerning the term "Cité") is "Paris Cité University".

Naming the article "Paris Cité University" would also follow English language Wikipedia's well-established naming convention of using the term "University" in an article title, rather than an equivalent term from another language, such as "Université", "Universität", "Universidad", etc. The guidelines for foreign names describe how articles on lesser-known valleys in Germany follow the naming convention for the well-known valleys Rheintal and Moseltal, where the article names are Rhine Valley and Moselle Valley. Similarly, Paris Cité University is a lesser-known university, and the article should follow the naming convention for all of the other French university articles by using "University" and not "Université" in the title. --MyPOV (talk) 07:21, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I continue to agree with these arguments that the article should be renamed to "Paris Cité University". In addition, this phrase has now been used in English-language news media, by the BBC ("Experts generally recommend about seven or eight hours, the researchers, from University College London and Paris Cité University, say."), the Financial Times ("Molina, an infectious disease professor at the Paris Cité university, said France had changed its strategy [...]"), and France24 ("Paris-Cité University now ranks 78th instead of 73rd"). DominikPeters (talk) 20:44, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also New York Times ("said Dr. Jean-Michel Molina, a professor of infectious diseases at Paris Cité University, who led the study", March 9, 2023) DominikPeters (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[rename-decree-1] "Décret n° 2022-327 du 4 mars 2022 portant dénomination d'établissement public expérimental". www.legifrance.gouv.fr. 4 March 2022. Retrieved 2022-03-07.

[lemonde-rename-2] "L'Université de Paris bientôt renommée Université Paris Cité". Le Monde.fr (in French). 15 February 2022. Retrieved 8 March 2022.

[1]

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